Helping With Executive Function


EPISODE 145 SEASON 4 | What makes a successful student or person? While there are a LOT of items on that checklist, there are a set of skills that can make it a great deal easier to be successful. This skill set is called executive functioning. It is a broad group of mental skills that enable people to complete tasks and interact with others. It is a skill set that allows a student/person to write that final paper, plan a business outline, or follow a set of instructions on what chores to do in a specific manner. 

Join Janna and her guest Dr. Lauran Kerr-Heraly as they discuss time management and other executive functioning skills. Learn how you can help your child as they move through their educational journey.

ABOUT OUR GUEST | Lauran Kerr-Heraly is an award-winning educator and author who has dedicated her career to transforming lives through education. She was homeschooled all the way through high school, which allowed her to develop a deep appreciation for self-directed learning and a passion for helping others to take control of their education. Lauran has worked in college readiness in American high schools, taught in international and British schools in England, and currently serves as a professor in an American community college. Her innovative teaching includes turning a classroom into an escape room, multidisciplinary projects showcasing personal food histories and environmental justice, and experimental learning spaces. She helps students and parents develop a holistic approach to college success, which includes a focus on essential skills, executive function, and emotional awareness.

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Podcast Transcript

Janna  00:00 Welcome to Homeschool Your Way. I'm your host Janna Koch and BookSharks Community Manager. Today I am joined by Dr. Lauran Kerr-Heraly. She's an award-winning educator and author, who has dedicated her career to transforming lives through education. Fun fact, she was also homeschooled.

I'm super excited to delve into our topic today about executive functioning. And believe it or not, it's not just students who find themselves with a possible deficit in this area. Lauran, thank you so much for being here.

Lauran  00:30 Thanks for having me.

Janna  00:33 Why don't you go ahead and give us just a little bit of your background and how you became involved in homeschooling? Kind of not even of your own volition?

Lauran  00:44 Yes, well, so I was homeschooled K through 12. And I like to say my parents were homeschool pioneers because we were one of two homeschooling families and my entire town and Wyoming. So things have changed quite a bit from them. But I really loved being homeschooled. And I graduated when I was 15 went straight to community college, which I also loved so much that I am now a community college professor. So as a student, I had a really good opportunity to learn about homeschooling. And now, I teach a lot of homeschoolers through the community college system, either in dual credit or recent graduates. And I'm also planning to homeschool my own kiddo. So I've gotten into a lot more kinds of homeschool groups and discussions, as of late.

 Janna  01:36 Do you find it interesting that because you were homeschooled, you didn't automatically want to homeschool your child because I'm the same way I actually didn't. I resisted it for years about homeschooling my own children.

Lauran  01:49 I think it's, you know, it's something we considered. When we were looking at educational options, we considered homeschooling, private, public, whatever. And it just seemed like it wasn't quite the right time. But now that our kiddo is getting to middle school, we want to road school and we want to do all these things that we think would be beneficial for our whole family. So it's Yeah, it is interesting, because it's always different with your own kid. And it's part of why homeschooling works is because you can tailor it to what their needs are. And you can start homeschooling and then go to public school, and then go back if you want. So there's there's a lot of flexibility.  

Janna  02:30 That's nice. I think it's a common misconception that if you were homeschooled, and you don't choose to homeschool your children that must mean you had a negative experience. And that was not at all the case for me. I really enjoyed homeschooling, it just didn't fit our family at the time.

 Lauran  02:46 Exactly. And you know, my sister who was home-schooled with me is homeschooling her three kiddos. And so we both had a great experience, it was just more of the needs of our family, which is what we all want to really look at is what is the best possible educational situation for our kids.

 Janna  03:03 And now you find yourself surrounded by homeschooled children coming up into young adulthood, looking to you and wanting more information at a higher level of learning. What has been your experience as you see this next generation of homeschoolers coming up into the collegiate realm?

Lauran  03:26 So one thing that I see with every teenager, regardless of their educational background, because you can prepare them with all the right SATs, classes, and all that subject tutoring, and you've got the essay writing coach, and you've been to all the extracurriculars. Every student when they are a young adult will struggle with executive function. And executive function. To put it plainly is the set of skills that help us get things done. It's the mental processes that tell us to get things done. And the demands that are required of a student in high school, whether they're at home school, or not exceed what their brains can do. And part of that is not their fault part of it too, because we ask a lot of them. Part of it might also be that we've scaffolded too much. You know, I think a lot of parents think, especially if they didn't get a lot of help when they were a teenager, they want to sort of make sure their kid has everything. And that's why Yeah. And homeschoolers have the opportunity to help their students in every possible way. But sometimes that means that they don't have the skills to do things on their own. So those are some of the things that I see they're universal, but particularly for homeschoolers, I remember you know, as I mentioned, I was 15 when I graduated straight to community college, and I had great homeschool education. academically, I was very prepared for the college environment. But I was not necessarily ready socially. And I don't just mean with my peers, I mean, interacting with adults, I mean, navigating the systems of the college, registration and payment and scholarships, and all of that I was not prepared for. So there is this big jump, that we kind of expect students to go from having their schedule completely planned out. You know, even in homeschool, we say you have to do these five things, here's the order, I recommend, and I'm going to check on you and half an hour and make sure that all of this is going well, you don't have that in college, even if you're living at home, and you're in a college environment, you don't have that kind of oversight. So it's something that can be kind of a shock for students. When they get to the college environment, or even the high school environment.

Janna  05:59 It's amazing how we, as parents try so hard to make sure that our kids are completely prepared. And what I am finding in my parenting, my twins will be 18 Soon is that we all parent, kind of from our own deficit. So like you're saying, like, Okay, so maybe our generation had a little bit less oversight, right as I mean, and it kind of sounds like probably my homeschool experience was very different than yours. I was left to my own, I sought out my education, I loved education, so nobody could stop me, right, like nobody had to check on me. But from that, I do feel like I have micromanaged my own children, even as they have done concurrent enrollment, and being outside of the home. Because in my mind, this is what I would have wanted when I had been homeschooled, and I have to constantly remind myself that they didn't have the same upbringing. So their need is not my need. And I know this is not groundbreaking, but as homeschool parents, I think sometimes it has to be reiterated like, you are naturally parenting your children and preparing them out of what you experienced their experience is not the same.

Lauran  07:15 Correct. And it's important to recognize that they're also growing up in a different world than we were when we were kids. You know, just homeschooling in general, like I said, two families in one town, and we had to drive five hours to the once-a-year homeschool convention, that was our only support. And now there's so much support that it's totally overwhelming. Like, if you search for Facebook groups, for homeschooling, it's you're gonna get everything. So in a way, we have to figure out how our kids how our students can get the individualized systems created for them. And they need to be part of that process that works for them. We have students who have different learning styles, we have a lot of neurodivergent, that, you know, finally we're starting to recognize this society. And we have people who are interested in different career pathways, but they're all going to have to take my history one-on-one class, and they might not care. So we have to figure out how to get them to care about everything that they're involved in, and sometimes how to push through and do the boring things. And then also how to take ownership of their education and their skill set.

Janna  08:33 So when you're seeing these students come into your classroom, and you're recognizing these this deficit, what what are some of the tips that you have, that you share with your students, and then we can kind of talk about to the program that you created since you were seeing this so frequently.

Lauran  08:51 So if I'm going to speak to my college classroom, one thing that they really struggle with is knowing how much time the course is going to take. So I would say to them, it's going to be you know, and I have a whole calculation, I've got a video on this that we can put in the show notes. But it's how to calculate the time that you need for a college course. And this is a good thing to practice for high school homeschoolers because they can see, okay, this semester, my history class, is this many weeks, and this is how much time I need to spend per week and this is how I'm going to break it down, etc. So I do go through with them and encourage them to find time in their weeks. I have a lot of students who have care responsibilities, they have full-time jobs, etc. And this is also true of homeschool students who are dual credit or recent grads because they're often taking care of younger siblings. They're interning maybe in a company or they're working to pay for their education. So it is significant that they sit down and they find a time in their week. It's also important, you know, as we want to have warm open communication with our high schoolers, we want to have that same warm open communication with our college students. So I wouldn't necessarily sit down with my sophomore in college and say, let's figure out, you know, the 10 hours a week that you need to study. But I would ask them, to have an open conversation with you, you know, my students, I tell them, You need to tell your friends that between these two hours, you are not available, your phone is off, you can't do the dishes, they'll do them later, whatever it is you but you need to sort of, you know, arrange that time. So time management is a big thing. Time blindness is maybe a term that is a bit newer, but that is the sense that when you think, Oh, this thing is going to take five minutes, but it actually is a two-hour task. Or conversely, it's a three-hour task, or you think it's a three-hour task. And it's a five-minute task. So you put it off till the very last minute, right? So having a perception of time that's realistic can be a pretty big game changer. It comes to emotional regulation, which is a big part of executive function because that is a brain function that comes from the frontal lobe, and again, it's around 25, that the frontal lobe is fully formed. And that can vary based on, you know, neuro divergence, as well as trauma and other factors. But, so if a student is in college before 25, they've got deficits there, right? So we have seen, you know, my spouse has been a high school teacher for a long time, I taught college prep high school, and I taught embedded ACT courses. I've taught in boarding schools. I've taught in a lot of different types of environments. And then my favorite is now what I've been doing for several years, which is Community College. 

In all of those environments, I can almost set my watch to midterm. When everyone is going to have a breakdown, the students are going to come to me and they're going to say I can't do it anymore. It's too much. I'm behind. My mom wants this from me, my job wants me to work more hours, or you know, I overcommitted or I wasn't prepared for this course. And they just shut down. Some of my students will disappear for two weeks and not come back. And then they'll come back when they've like, sort of composed themselves. But I tell them, you need to be communicating with me and the people in your life about what's going on. So emotional regulation is one of those things that can be practiced. And it can be practiced on a micro level in high school, to start with awareness. And that can be just how are you feeling right now. Do a self-check. We use the feelings we'll use. You can Google that. But my spouse and I use it too, it's not just for kids. But it helps you identify? Because you might be able to say, Oh, I'm feeling overwhelmed. That's not really a specific feeling, right? How can you break that down into something that is more specific? Once you have emotional awareness, then you can make a plan for how to deal with it. But if the midterm breakdown is coming, then you need to be aware of what's leading to that as well. So practice that on a micro-level in the high school situation. Make sure you have a good support system, and make sure that you're not overcommitted. And be kind to yourself. That's a big thing for parents and our kids.

Janna  13:26 When my daughter called me yesterday, crying because there was a mix up with her schedule at school. And my first response is definitely to cry. I mean, I think, I don't know if I'm the only one but I just feel like tears are my soul's way of letting go of some of that overwhelm. So definitely cry. And then let's figure out what had caused the problem. And part of it is, I think, fatalistic thinking of young adults because their frontal lobe is not fully developed. So they do need safe mentors in their lives to walk them through some of these things. It's like, even though maybe wasn't stuff that we talked about when we were kids, now we know when we can do better. She felt like she dropped the ball somewhere. And, so I was like, Okay, well, let's get before we think about the rest of the schedule. Let's get rid of let's get down to the bottom of that feeling because that's going to make you feel insane. If you can't pinpoint what had happened. So come to find out she hadn't logged into her college email. And when she did, the class had been canceled just the week before. So she did do that. She did register for it. It was on her calendar, and now she knows why it has disappeared. But once you can kind of like take away that. Oh my gosh, did I make a mistake? I don't like making mistakes, Lauran. I don't know that a lot of people do but some personalities can roll with it better than others have in mind. otter is very much like me. And so I was like, Don't you feel better now that you know that you did do all the right steps and this was completely out of your control, you still feel out of control, right? You still have to come up with a solution. But just taking away that one thing of it, am I not paying attention? Did I do something and didn't do it properly? It's like these little things that just immediately when you're already emotional about, you know, whether you're finishing up high school and in college, or you're in college, and you don't know what the next steps are, that's incredibly overwhelming emotionally for young adults. And then as parents, we feel it too, and we're trying to fix things, but we're trying to let them figure things out on their own. And, it's this dance that we do that it's like if we can eliminate things that are causing extra stress, and not eliminate it for them, but helping them walk through the processes to find out how they can eliminate it for themselves. It's amazing that one thing changed the entire scenario for her.

Lauran  16:01 Well, and I think that's a great example of how to handle it as a parent because emotional regulation does not mean like you're a robot, it means figuring out how you feel and then being able to deal with the feelings. So I think that's great. And, you know, I talked about how I was a procrastinator, and I'm still a procrastinator, but I was a much worse procrastinator in college because I'm a perfectionist. So I finally figured that was I had this moment I was 2am. This was back when we still had computer labs. So it was 2am. They were closing the computer lab, they're kicking me out, I'm like my papers do the next day and the printer is not working. And I was like, Okay, this has to stop, I have to figure out what's going on. And I realized that I procrastinated. Because I'm a perfectionist. If I waited till the last minute, I had a reason for why it wasn't perfect. So once I figured that out, I was able to start earlier, I was able to just let it go, I was you know, a 90, it's fine. An 85 is fine. Sometimes a 70 is fine, if that's you know, which is how I handled math. But that, for me was a big game changer. And part of the reason I'm so passionate about executive function is because I've taught students with so many various backgrounds for a long time. And my spouse and my child were recently, a couple of years ago, diagnosed with ADHD. And it was one of those things that it was kind of like this lightbulb that like, Oh, this is why this is hard. I know. And this is this is what we can do about it. Because once you sort of know what's going on with your brain. And in the case of ADHD, it is a disorder. You know, my husband always says I hate it when people say this is a superpower. It's a disorder, it's hard. But there are ways to deal with it. And you know, in our case, it's a mix of medication and routines and just a lot of grace. But knowing all these things about ourselves will help us be a lot more gentle with ourselves. And then again, like I keep saying we have to create systems that work for us. I worked with a student recently, who for an entire year did not write down, any assignments. So was one of my one-to-one clients. And I said so you hate doing this, don't you? And he said yes. And I said, Okay, well, let's figure out a way for you to not hate it. So through conversations, we figured out that he's really into graphic novels. So I said, Let's every class do a square of a graphic novel. And we came up with a character. And we came up with a little soundcloud. And so this little character tells him what his assignments are for each class. But that was a total change. Because what his brain thought was, I can't do this. And my brain doesn't work this way. I can't write down my assignment. So he didn't even attempt it. But once we figured that out, it was like, Oh, my brain likes stories. My brain thinks this way. So that we're doing it this way. And it's a big change. So it's liberating to realize that maybe your professor or your parents and homeschool will say you need to put your stuff in a calendar this way. The important thing is you put it on a calendar. Is it an app? Is it did you draw a giant Mind Map? Did you make a graphic novel, whatever it is, it has to work for you or you won't do it.

Janna  19:20 My youngest daughter refuses to write down things. And I am a list maker and a box checker. So it frustrates me to no end. And as a homeschool parent, I find that everything I talk about it always comes back to how I need to change my perspective, and how I'm looking at things with my children as we're taking this journey. And so I keep saying, Okay, I just don't know how you're not writing it down. It's just that I'm trying to breathe through it myself because it doesn't make sense to me. But I also know that you don't always complete the tasks. So what we have yet to come up with is the system, we're still kind of working on it. And if first you don't succeed, try try again, right?  I find that demanding things of my older children now really tends to backfire. And I really would rather partner with them to help them be successful, as opposed to them just being obedient. And that's definitely not the type of parenting that I was modeled. And so it has taken well, almost 18 years with my first to, to really try to understand that executive function isn't something that is natural to necessarily a lot of people. I mean, it's something that can be developed, but you have to be aware of it right, you have to be aware that you don't have a process. And, some people are just naturally, they make the list, and it feels good. And that works with their personality. But that's not everybody. And so as a parent, it's so frustrating. But it's important to recognize these things so that when our kids do get to college or outside of our home, you know, they are prepared, even if it's not the way we would have done it.

Lauran  21:05 Well, I think that you made several good points there. And I want to capitalize on the fact that you say you want to partner with your kids, which is the best way to do it. Because, and sometimes, you know, my daughter, and I think very differently. I have anxiety, she has ADHD. And so sometimes we're like speaking different languages. So one of the things that has been successful for us, and what I suggest to parents is to find someone who thinks like them, some kind of other mentor that has, particularly if you can find a recent college grad. That's golden because they'll see, okay, this person is not a list taker, but they graduated, they did okay, what did they do? Right? So that can be helpful. Because our kids always want to listen to someone besides us, right? The other thing I would say is, when we are trying to support our kids, this is something that I have learned to do with my students, as well as with my own child is to not have hard starts. So that would be like, you know, the they come in the door, I got your report card. What did you do? Like, how could you like, you know, whatever it is? And instead of saying, first of all, you reconnect, how are you? But then with my students, I'll say, you know, I'm noticing that you're struggling. What's going on? Like, let's find out, I'm inviting them to tell me the emotional reason that things aren't going well, right? And it's also an opportunity for them to, because if I go to them, and I say you haven't turned in the last two assignments, you're gonna fail the course, that relationship is over, right? So what we're trying to do is invite our students to come to us before things are dire, right? So this can be something that happens with a lot of first-generation college students in particular, or maybe they've had, they've been homeschooled, and so they feel some pressure to succeed because they've had a different type of education than their peers is that they, they're not doing well, in a class or they're not doing well at college socially. They're miserable, they're whatever, but they don't tell anybody. And they just wait till the end of the semester until they fail. And failure is not the end, you know, I have students who have taken my class, I am very proud of this student who just took my class for the third time. And he had a lot of emotional stuff going on. He had all kinds of issues that were challenges, I should say. And he passed my class on the third time and we celebrated, you know, so failure is not the end. But also it's before that midterm breakdown. Let's have a conversation with our kids and say, How are things going? If you're struggling in this class, it's okay. If you're struggling socially, it's okay. So having that kind of safety net to put out for our kids, in the beginning, invites them to open up instead of saying, I'm just gonna, you know, I lost my financial aid because I failed a class and now I'm sleeping on my friend's couch, so you won't know about it. It's a big stream, but it happens maybe more than you would realize. So again, that warm open communication, trying to figure out what's going on emotionally inviting them to help you help them. The biggest thing is it’s their idea, right?


Janna  24:35 Well, that in and of itself is a whole other college course that I think all parents would take if it were available to us. Lauran, I am so pleased to hear you giving homeschool parents permission to give grace. I think sometimes there's this outside pressure along with inside pressure when we choose to do something that's countercultural, and then we feel the need to prove to those around us whoever they are, that we made the right decision for our children that we didn't mess them up in some way. And so from the pressure out and the pressure in, it boils over and our children are unfortunately kind of a casualty that happens in that they're the force that you know, that feels our force when it happens. So permission to give ourselves grace, and then that there's nothing wrong with giving our children grace. And it really doesn't matter what anyone else says or thinks. Because when everybody's 35, and in their career and has their own families, if that's their, what they choose, like, none of this stuff, none of the pressures are going to matter. But it's what we do in the day-to-day, the relationship building that does matter.

Lauran  25:50 And the reality of the matter is, we've all done the best we can with the knowledge that we had. And so we need to give ourselves so much grace, because we're learning as our kids are learning. And the world is changing very quickly. And maintaining a close relationship can be difficult, and it can be felt like a mountain that we're climbing, but you just have to hang in there and be supportive. The because the students I know, you know, could be the first generation students whose parents don't speak English. And they have very little context for the college experience. The ones that do better, are the ones who have a close relationship with their parents, and they can go to them and say I'm struggling, they can go to them and whatever. So that it is really significant. But, you know, being homeschooled myself, sometimes I'll say to people, you know, I was homeschooled, and they're sort of surprised, not because they, they don't think it's legitimate, but it's like, oh, but now you have a doctorate and you're doing this or whatever. I'm like, Yeah, so you're right. But once we get to a certain point, it doesn't matter. And we don't really need to compare ourselves to anyone. In any situation, you know, this is this can be difficult if you have a neurodivergent child. And they're being compared with their behavior or their you know, you know, for my daughter, she's sometimes pulled out of situations so that she can get extra time or whatever it is. And I would encourage everyone, you know, I'm not a psychologist, not a neurologist. So if you suspect any kind of learning challenge with your child, definitely go and get them, you know, assessed because it is a game changer. My husband was 40 when he was diagnosed. And it's like, it's changed our whole life. But my students who have their letters, there are lots of accommodations, you know, that that has to be formalized. I have several students who have letters but never turn them into me. And because it's they want to start over when they're in college and prove that their dyslexia or their ADHD is not going to hold them back. And they can just do it their own way. Don't make it hard for yourself, you know, and make it so that I always say smart students ask for help successful students ask for help. All you're doing is getting the support that you need for the way that your brain works, and the way that you need to have help. You know, I had a, what, like an assistant dog in my class last semester, and I was like, This is great. Made everyone is happier, right? So because that student took the steps that she needed to have her emotional support dog with her so that she could focus in class. So this is, it benefits everyone if you get the help that you need.

Janna  28:44 Well, before we go, can you share a hack with our listeners?

Lauran  28:49 Yes. Just one. Okay. One of the things that with, you know, I've talked about executive function kind of in a sort of umbrella sort of way. But again, it's really the set of skills that helps us get things done. It's the working memory, it which helps us remember, processes, people with deficits and working memory, can remember, you know, we're a big trivia family. So my husband can remember all kinds of trivia about like the 50 states, but he can't remember to, like, unload the dishwasher. That's working memory, right? And it's something we joke about, but that's just an aside. Anyway. So it's mental flexibility. It's emotional regulation. So on my website, I have an infographic called the College Prep Essential Skills infographic. What I recommend as a hack is to look at that infographic it's I've divided it into skills of scholastic study, social, and sensibility, which is the emotional part. And so what I recommend is for you to take a couple of weeks and write down executive function skills that your kids do really well. I'll. So for example, one of the executive function skills is being able to sort of remember and also process what you've read. So if your child reads a book and tells you about it, and has an opinion about it, that's well-founded based on the text, write that down, write that, because that's an let's put it in a positive category, if they were helpful to a sibling, but that in the sensibility emotional regulation category, that's positive, right? It can be really helpful for you as a parent to see, okay, maybe they're like, again, that fatalistic attitude of like, nothing is working, you know, you got to start with the positive. And then I would take another week to note down some areas of growth. And then I would not go to your child and say, I've been observing you like a weird scientist for the last couple of weeks. But to say, you know, I've noticed that time management has been a struggle. And I wonder if there are some things that we could change or a way that I could help you? Can we change a system, etc. So that's my hack is to start observing these skills, and then to pick just one or two things at a time, that maybe you as a family can work on together. And maybe that's first you saying, like, you don't have this to say, like,I have a list? Why doesn't my kid have a list? You know, to step back, and maybe maybe the first change is to change your perspective. And then to think, okay, but there is still a gap, there's still not turning things in on time, or the tasks aren't getting completed. So list is not the answer. The problem is the tasks aren't happening. What executive function skill category can we work on? To close that gap?

Janna  31:49 I hear you saying is literature-based learning where we read to our kids, and then have discussions and have them tell us the story back is a great way to build executive functions.

Lauran  32:01 Yes. And you can start, you know, we're not born with zero executive functions, we all have them, they just need to be developed. And you start in kindergarten with, you know, my kid loved that memory game, right? Where you put all the cards down and you pick up to, that's your developing memory, and then you develop working memory from then. So the book discussions, the memory games, the, you know, all in all, I could go on and on. But there are a lot of things that you could do in elementary school, to help your kids develop this. And you don't necessarily have to tell them, that's what you're doing. But yes, all of those will help, there are a lot of things about homeschooling that do help build executive function, and that's a positive thing I want to say. It's just a matter of developing them and scaffolding them as they grow older, because, like I said, the demands grow higher than the executive function skills are at a faster pace.

Janna  33:02 So I think it's also natural as our children start to age, we stop playing memory games, right? We kind of get away from reading aloud if you're not in a program like BookShark, that it's the forefront of the curriculum. And being intentional to continue and scaffold these very things are going to be so helpful for parents to continue to help grow their children in this area, which is an area that has not been growing. Maybe the best way it can be so Lauran, thank you so much for coming on today. How can our listeners learn more about what you offer through your courses?

Lauran  33:43 The best way to get to me is through my website, all my socials are on there. As I said, the infographic is on there. And all of my offerings are on there I have executive function cohorts is what I call them, and you can join the waitlist at any time. They are virtual experiences for students and or parents. And we do a lot of fun things in there to to assess executive function skills to help improve them. There's a lot of gamification involved. So those are fun sessions but also you'll come away with some really good skills and ways to continue to improve them.

 Janna  34:27 And then you had a special for our listeners if they wanted to connect with you and purchase something from you, what can they expect?

Lauran  34:36 So you can get 10% off any products that I offer with the code bookshark.

Janna  34:41 Alright, you guys, you heard it here. Go to and learn more about what Lauran has available to help you and your students learn executive functioning and ways to improve what you already know your children have. Make sure to use the code bookshark if you want to purchase something from her and we'll have all the information including the link to the infographic in the show notes thank you so much, Lauran. Thank you guys, until next time goodbye